Participants:
Feminist:
Quinten
Tucker
Josh
Kevin
Anti-Feminist:
Donovan
Cloverse
Clarkson
CJ
=Women have it easier than they think they do.=
[Female]
Step forward if you agree with the prompt, women have it easier than they think they do.
Donovan
With feminism, it's kind of brainwashed women to think that they are victims in 99% of cases, and all the disenfranchisement that they would claim in colleges and careers...
A lot of these careers are way easier to get into for women than they are for men, because they're looking to hire women because of feminism.
Cloverse
Yeah, like in divorce and stuff, they get more property, the kids' rights, all that.
Donovan
Yeah.
Cloverse
But more so, I think that from the jump (they) actually have it easier.
Donovan
Yeah.
Cloverse
Like men need to be a provider. They're taught to be tough.
"Oh, why are you crying? Don't be a girl."
But when a girl is crying or a girl is upset or anything that happens, usually, they're a princess and they're given the world.
Donovan
Well, yeah, 'cause with women, they're born with their value.
They innately have value.
Cloverse
Right.
Donovan
They can create life and they're extremely valuable from birth.
Cloverse
Right.
Donovan
For men, it's not really the same way.
You have to make something of yourself to be respected.
Cloverse
Exactly.
Like a pretty woman can go far just using her face, a man can't do that.
A man can't go to a rich businessman or like a businesswoman and be like, "I'm good looking. Let me come to your yacht."
Donovan
Right.
Cloverse
A woman can.
Donovan
Right.
=======
[Female]
Let's bring the disagreers forward.
Quinten
I have a quick question.
Just a second ago you were saying that a pretty woman could go onto a rich man's yacht and that would be kind of her ticket on, right?
Cloverse
Yep.
Quinten
Okay, so did that help women vote at all being pretty?
Cloverse
But what does that to do with-
Quinten
I'm just asking because.. I mean, when we're talking about women's lives being better than they think they are, would you rather be pretty and be able to get on a yacht or have your liberties?
Cloverse
What are we living in, like the 1950s or 2022?
Donovan
They already have the right to vote.
They have the right to vote for a long time.
Tucker
I think something you specifically said shows to me why women don't have it easier.
I think it was you who said women already have their value, their value is already obvious because they can have children.
I don't wanna put you into a box, but there are large amounts of men. Women are people that have children and then they raise the child and they be quiet.
That is the problem.
Donovan
Not at all.
Josh
And I think what was really evident to me when both of y'all came up and talked was, how indoctrinated into the patriarchy you are, right?
You both come up and say,
"As men we have to prove something."
And those expectations that you put on yourself is a direct result of patriarchy and the system that feminism is trying to dismantle.
(murmurs)
Quinten
As are the values that women have that women they're born that you're talking about?
Women did not create those--
Donovan
Right.
Quinten
Men did.
Donovan
Those are God-ordained.
Men and women are both equal under God and then valued as human beings.
In Genesis, you have a creation of both men and women that are made in God's image, so--
Tucker
We're not about to quote the Bible in (like) some feminist topic.
Donovan
Hold on
Quinten
I mean we can.
Tucker
We're operating in a country where there's a separation of church and state.
You cannot use religion as a motivation you need with legislation.
=====
Tucker
If I hear one more person use religion as a reason to not give rights to people…
I’m probably gonna fucking explode.
People using their own personal ideologies as an excuse to implement legislation, over other people's lives, are simply just not okay with the fact that they can't control everything around them.
=======
Clarkson
Back to the prompt. I mean, I don't think that women have it easier than they think they do.
And I think to just make blanket statements like, women in society think they have it easy or men in society have it harder.
Whatever you wanna say, I just think it's kind of naive.
Sure, maybe some women think they have it easier, but that might not be because they're a woman.
It might just be because of their own set of life challenges and vice versa.
CJ
Yeah, and I agree.
And one of the reasons that I am so passionately antifeminist is 'cause I believe that feminism pits men against women.
Men and women may be equal today, but they're not the same.
But also too, women are under a pressing assault today in this country.
They're losing their ability to compete in sports, beauty pageants--
Quinten
Oh boy.
CJ
Also just basic things like that to people that identify as women.
And no one is talking about it.
Feminists aren't talking about it.
So now, you have conservatives having to fight for women's equality and it's making some sense.
Josh
You're making some pretty, blanket statements saying feminists don't care about it.
And you say, you think that all women just are against the men.
CJ
Well, to answer your question, yeah.
You're talking about women, women are not all feminists.
Cloverse
Yeah.
CJ
There are plenty of feminists who are very anti-woman.
You know, you saw it during in the political era where you have people who
will attack Kayleigh McEnany and Kellyanne Conway because they aren't pro-women, they're not for the girls.
Tucker
So you, and--
[Female] Actually, we have like just a little bit left.
I haven't heard Kevin yet.
Kevin
Yeah, when you talked about the pressures of being a man and having to provide and having to prove your value as a man, I think those are real challenges that men face.
That's why women have it harder too because they are also being impacted by how aggressive men feel like they need to be to be able to secure the role that they have to play in society. But the reality of today is that because of the systems that we're in, the patriarchy is negatively impacting not only women but also men.
=======
=There's no wrong reason to get an abortion=
- [Female] There's no wrong reason to get an abortion.
Tucker
So, I'll just center the conversation, around the very fact that, YOU KNOW, we're a group of eight men, the optics of eight men in a room talking about when women do and don't deserve to get an abortion.
It's a bad look.
[???]
That's right.
Tucker
So like, for me, from a personal standpoint, YOU KNOW, I have a girlfriend. There might be some reasons on a personal level where her and I having that conversation together, I might say,
"Oh, I think we should do this. I think we should do that."
On a legislative level, I don't feel confident enough to legislate when someone is and isn't allowed to get healthcare.
Quinten
Yeah, right.
Tucker
'Cause that's what abortion is. It's healthcare.
Quinten
Yeah. One of the paramount ideologies of, I guess, being "Male feminist" is just the ability to mind your own business.
Just to be able to say that this is the wrong reason to have an abortion. You're already headed down the wrong path.
Josh
Yeah.
Cloverse
So being an antifeminist, I look at this and I say, well, I am more religious as well--
Quinten
As am I.
Cloverse
So I want to say like, I'm more like pro-life, right?
But if a woman decides that they wanna not give birth, it doesn't matter the reason.
You know, maybe she's not wealthy enough.
Maybe the father left her, YOU KNOW, there's so many reasons.
And then I also look at (like) just gun violence and how we're birthing kids and we raise them and send them to school knowing that it can get killed.
I don't know, I would feel like--
Tucker
It's not the best world to be raising a child in.
Cloverse
Exactly, exactly.
Quintin
I think, a patriarchal element, even in your answer, (not to combat or what have you), the idea of trying to cycle through the reasons why, and going,
"Yeah, I guess those make sense,"
…is still, in my opinion, patriarchal.
Cloverse
Even though I was on the feminist side on that topic, it feels like I was put in a position where I was framed as wrong.
It felt like you aren't allowed to have this opinion on this topic 'cause you're not a woman.
And I think that's kind of bullshit to be honest.
CJ
Off the top of my head
I know that it was mentioned earlier that abortion is healthcare…
And I first want to push back on that abortion is not healthcare.
Healthcare preserves life, it protects it, it doesn't take it away.
It doesn't eliminate it.
Tucker
What about the woman's life?
CJ
But when you exterminate a child that is doing harm, that is not healthcare.
Tucker
Oh, but it's not always a child, right?
It's a discussion (of) “when it becomes a child or not”.
That's not a gray area, that's not a line.
Donovan
It is actually scientifically proven. It is a separate strain of DNA at conception.
If you ask any doctor--
Tucker
But if you took that clump of cells out, would it survive?
CJ
Well, we are all clumps of cells.
Donovan
It's not a clump of cells, that's why you call it a termination.
Scientifically, it is a life at birth--
Tucker
At birth.
Donovan
And scientifically, it is--
Tucker
Did you just hear?
Donovan
I'm sorry, at conception, at conception.
Tucker It is a life, but it is not a human.
Josh
So look, though, the thing is, so and you say, it's about protecting life. Abortions are protecting lives of thousands of women who maybe are not able to help-
Clarkson
At the expense of another life.
Josh
But you are already prioritizing that other life over the woman who's carrying that.
(murmurs)
Josh
It' because of patriarchy--
Quintin
That's why you're doing it.
Josh
Because of patriarchy you're all basically saying that.
[???]
So, what if we're aborting a female baby?
Josh
See, these souls are more important than the woman--
CJ
I think it's absolutely shameful how flippantly our society has begun to treat the topic of abortion.
You are literally exterminating an unborn child, that is wrong, that is wrong.
Josh
To protect the life of another woman.
CJ
Then don't have sex without protection.
Josh
Really, you don't have sex without protection.
CJ
Then get contraception.
Josh
You don't have sex without protection.
CJ
Okay, well I don't have a baby.
Quinten
Tell me, what they can do.
CJ
I don't have a baby.
Quinten
Yeah, tell them what they can do.
CJ
Stop absolving women and men of responsibility and treating grown ass people like they are children.
Quinten
- Again, we're not emphasizing any of those things. We're going straight to women and making it their problem.
Tucker
Right.
Donovan
Well, it's a man's problem as well because if a man gets a woman pregnant, that is his child as well.
So, one of the things that's really important, and what abortion does is it puts all of reproductive rights in the hands of women.
When it takes both parties.
She cannot have a child without a man.
======
Donovan
Abortion normalizes women making bad choices.
We've kind of given a free pass for people to be a lot more carefree about who they sleep with and not really think twice about the ramifications that may come of it.
======
Quinten
Once again, we're talking, we're zooming in on a high level on the end result. We're not talking about the systemic issues that cause women to have abortion.
Hold on, hold on!
We're not talking about the lack of resources that make people feel like they cannot sustain a pregnancy or sustain a life.
And those are things that are caused by the way men have set up society.
So instead, hold on, hold on...
So instead of talking about the actual issues from the top down and going the whole way, we go to the most oppressed person involved and make it their fault.
=====
= Mansplaining is overly criticized=
[Female] Mansplaining is overly criticized.
Clarkson
I frequently come across videos online where a man will respond back to a broad generalization about women, and they'll be like,
"Oh, you're just mansplaining it,"
as if men aren't allowed to have a voice in the conversation.
And I think that the term itself, it's just not really defined.
CJ
And mansplaining is just not real.
Like it literally, is a man explaining something and these people get angry about it. Like that's the reality of the times in which we live.
And it also, it hurts the ability of men to have conversations with women, because you think,
"Oh wow, if I explain this issue to her and I'm gonna be accused of mansplaining or I'm gonna be accused of being sexist because I don't think she understands it,"
It's toxic and it hurts women, it hurts men.
And it's just not a way for us to have a functional society.
Donovan
And at its core, it's completely hypocritical because the feminist plight is that women need to have a voice and they're being told they can't have a voice, and then they turn around and do the exact same thing and say,
"You're a mansplaining me. You shouldn't have a voice about this topic because you're a man."
CJ
And we're targeted because of our identity, and no one cares about it
because we're supposedly
"In positions of power."
So we don't get to be victims.
We don't get to say,
"Oh, you should feel bad for us because we're men."
So we don't get to have the luxury of having the benefit of the doubt of society or the media or any of those things.
And it's a shame, it's a shame.
-----------
Kevin
I'm gonna speak about mansplaining from a different perspective 'cause you guys are talking about controversial topics.
I'm gonna talk about it from just (like) a day-to-day perspective.
In my relationship with my partner, how I try to be really mindful of mansplaining is, when she is sharing her struggle, I think, a tendency that can be conditioned in me through just how men dominate and wanna have to solve problems and all that…
… is, I wanna jump in and just solve it, and try to explain what's happening here, and try to question her experience, and be like,
"Hey, well did you think about this? Did you think about that? Well, I see this."
That inherently in itself comes off as mansplaining because what is the counter to mansplaining is actually getting consent from the other person.
How do you wanna be supported?
Do you want me to support you and listen to you or do you want me to help solve problems?
Quinten
Mansplaining is also, not just having a man having an opinion.
That's not the situation. The idea is when a man interjects an opinion that he either is not fully educated on or does not have the appropriate empathy to be able to talk about.
Cloverse
That's what I'm saying. Who qualifies that? Yeah, exactly.
(murmurs)
Clarkson
- That's my issue is that--
Tucker
Then feel free when a woman does that to say you're a womansplaining. I don't think that
(murmurs)
Cloverse
That doesn't fix it.
CJ
There's a reason that term doesn't exist, because you're not allowed to do that towards women in society today.
Tucker I promise you if you did that, it would be just fine.
CJ
You just admitted.
Tucker
It would be just fine.
Quinten
I think the difference is though, if that were to happen to men, it wouldn't quiet our voices to be completely unheard.
My wife is a physics and math teacher.
If she has the answer to a question in a staff meeting, she's gonna have to be louder than the men in the room because that is the way society has conditioned people to operate, especially, in male dominated spaces.
That's what mansplaining is.
I have one more question.
Is it about the word?
Tucker
Yeah, that's what I feel
(murmurs)
Quinten
- Y'all have a lot of problems with a lot of these languages.
Clarkson
When you say mansplaining you have to understand that subconsciously we're already creating a divide when really, a woman can mansplain by definition the way you guys are explaining it.
And that's just as wrong as if a man does it, so why is it called mansplaining?
Why isn't it just disrespectful?
Quinten
So, when your life is not at stake, when you're not being attacked, I think, you can focus on language.
When you're not at risk of being--
Clarkson
You live in the US, dude, that doesn't matter.
CJ
Men are attacked every single day.
Quinten
Women are attacked more.
Clarkson
But I think from a societal standpoint, you guys talk a lot about social conditioning and how women feel uncomfortable.
But don't you think this narrative that you're saying right now is contributing to that, telling women that they should be scared when they're in an environment full of men, telling women that they are oppressed, they are this, they're that, by telling women they're less than them.
Quinten
Let me respond to that.
They're not telling them that. They're validating the fact that that's the reality, right?
======
[Female] Women should be encouraged to be financially independent of men.
CJ
I think this one's a no-brainer, right?
I believe that men and women are equal, they're just not the same.
And I think with that equality comes equal responsibility to be able to provide for yourself.
And when I think about what could provide "Oppression" if that were to exist would be this idea that they were tethered to men to live their lives.
I think if you remove that tethering, then obviously women are free to do whatever they please and exit very bad situations.
You know, one of the most unfortunate stories that you hear so often is
that so many women are forced to live in very dangerous circumstances, because they don't know who's gonna provide for their child if they leave. They don't know who's gonna provide for them if they leave.
And so, I think financial independence for anyone is always just a good idea.
Kevin
Yeah, I wanna speak about this through a different lens.
I think, it should be like, women should be empowered to be financially independent. Encouraged versus empowered takes a different sense of support speaking to how men feel the need to provide…
Sometimes when a woman makes more than a man, men can feel like they're less of a man, because the woman is taking more of the boss and provision kind of (like) role in the household.
So, I think that it's important to be able to equip women with being able to feel like they are empowered, and that is a feminist thing because it is breaking the gender norms of like, what is masculine and what is feminine role?
Clarkson
Yeah, I also think it is important though in this conversation to recognize the women that don't want to be financially independent in a marriage.
You know, there's a lot of women in our country that enjoy being mothers, and I think being a mother is is one of--
[??]
Incredibly valuable.
Clarkson
Yeah, exactly. And that doesn't necessarily mean that they're stuck in their situation because they're doing something very valuable by sacrificing that freedom in order to raise our next generation.
Tucker
They're just giving a choice, right?
CJ
And their love, is their labor, right?
Clarkson
Exactly, right.
CJ
Their love is their labor in their home.
------------
Cloverse
Okay, I have a few different thoughts.
One of them would be the importance of the family.
I think women should go out and be financially smart, and know how to make money and be able to make money for themselves.
But being independent of men leaves this notion that you can never trust a man or that men are unsafe.
And the problem that this brings is in the family. I think--
Josh
Can I ask you why?
Cloverse
Hold on, I'm just gonna finish my thought, I'll explain.
With the nuclear family, you have, and this is for both men and women, they're the most happiest when they're in that kind of dynamic.
And to your point about marriages where women make more than the man, that's one of the biggest indicators of divorce.
And I think there is a societal and honestly, God-given responsibility for men to provide.
So, when men are told that, "Women are gonna be independent of you," you're stripping away a lot of their purpose and responsibility to be caretakers of women to provide for women.
I would also say that the biggest group of people that are on antidepressants, and it's one in four, are women that are 40, have a career and have no family and no kids, which is the real meaning of life is community, family and relationships.
Tucker
Can I respond to one specific thing you said which is the demographic of women over 40 taking antidepressants?
And you're using that as proof that they're the most depressed group.
Men just kill themselves.
Donovan
Yeah, because of--
Tucker
So like with all the men that have killed themselves, if they didn't do that and were still here, men would predominantly be more depressed than women.
Donovan
That's a complete--
CJ
There's no basis, yeah.
Tucker
Men statistically kill themselves more.
Donovan
But we're talking about two completely separate different points. (murmurs)
Quinten
I think, he's just saying that that statistic is a little bit difficult to process because--
Tucker
I'm saying, it's out of context because the men that get--
Quinten
There's other factors.
Donovan
There's always gonna be other factors, but that's a clear indicator that women at some point, whether they started wanting a career, will eventually want to fall into the role of being a mom, having children. Because that is what women derive the most happiness from.
Quinten
You got a lot of studies and stats over here, which is cool, but like, when we're talking about financial literacy and financial freedom, there are a lot of women that have the ability that decide to step back, all those types of things.
None of that has to be taken away or omitted in order for them to be empowered. People should be able to do in their households what they wanna do.
CJ
Right.
Donovan
Right.
Quinten
I don't think anybody's trying to take that option away from women. I think y'all think people are, but I don't think that's really happening.
CJ
But they are, but they are.
We see that in society today.
People demonizing women for choosing to stay at home.
Female empowerment also means empowering women again to make the choice that fits them, their choices and what they want to do.
It is just as powerful, just as influential, just as important as a choice to make, to raise your kids at home if that is what you want to do, and also be the CEO of Walmart if that's what you choose to do.
We can empower women to be girl bosses, whatever you wanna say.
Quinten
What do you mean bosses?
Tucker
Would you empower a male friend if he told you that he was going to quit his job to be a full-time stay-at-home father?
(murmurs)
CJ
Passion, buddy.
Tucker
No, that's good.
I just wanna make sure because like you're only defending women who get demonized for doing this and you're not advocating for men to want to step up and do that too.
You're only--
CJ
Because most men don't want to.
Tucker
Why not, why don't you want to?
CJ
Because they don't want to.
Clarkson
Because they just don't want to. It's a choice.
CJ
Are you pro-choice or let pro-less choices.
Quinten
This is a trap.
This is a trap.
Tucker
What do you mean by that?
CJ
Are you pro-choice or are you pro-less choice?
Tucker
When I asked him why he doesn't encourage men, he said, "Because they don't want to do that."
So then why is it a problem if women don't wanna be stable?
Clarkson
Because it's about choice.
(murmurs)
Tucker
It's women's choice too.
CJ
I'm not encouraging to say no.
Clarkson
He never said that.
CJ
I'm saying that they have a choice and I'm not for taking choices away from women. You may be, I don't know. I'm--
===
[Female]
All right, reset.
Period pain is exaggerated.
Okay, I'm glad no one stepped forward for that. (all laughing)
Clarkson
I'm gonna change my mind. (murmurs) - Yeah.
[Female]
All right, next prompt.
====
=Innocent men suffer because of feminism=
Clarkson
So I think today in 2022, feminism has changed drastically, and I think it's really turned into demonizing masculinity in men while promoting masculinity in women. And with that, good men are being pushed the wayside, and pushing parts of themselves down and not embracing their own masculinity, because society is telling them that it's wrong.
Cloverse
100%. I think anything that is deemed masculine is now seen as toxic. And I see it all over social media. You can't really say anything or do anything, especially, even against or even for yourself without it being some weaponized in some way or shape or form.
Clarkson
Yeah.
CJ
It's a shame that feminism has become less about actual equality and more about supremacy.
It's not about equal rights, between men and women, it's about women being superior to men, and women don't even like it anymore, right?
I hear conversations with so many girls that are friends of mine.
They're like, "I hate what feminism has become, because it makes me feel as if I'm a victim."
And also to that men aren't supposed to be men anymore.
It almost absolves us of the responsibilities that we have as males in society to be providers, to be protectors.
Cloverse
Right.
CJ
And innocent men suffer because we're made out to be toxic because we're fulfilling our roles as men in this world.
It's absolutely insane.
Clarkson
Yeah, and I mean I disagree a little bit with saying that men have to be providers, but I think, demonizing those men is part of the problem.
CJ
Yeah, YOU KNOW, I would disagree a little bit, but I think also too though, what we probably would agree on is that in a society that makes women feel as if they need to be more like men, all you get is really bad versions of men.
And when you have men who are increasingly more feminine, you get men who aren't being men at all anymore.
And I think that's a huge societal problem, and we see the ripple effects and the consequence of that every single day.
Josh
When I started hearing y'all talk, y'all have a huge misconception of even what feminism is.
Clarkson
Well, please explain that. Explain to me that.
Josh
The goal of feminism isn't to de-masculate men.
The goal of feminism is to fight for social, political and economic equality for everyone regardless of your gender--
Clarkson
Is it an equality of opportunity or equality of outcome, because it used to be equality of opportunity, and that's when I would say I would be a feminist.
Josh
But either way--
Clarkson
And that's become equality and outcome.
Quinten
But either way what y'all are talking about is feelings.
Tucker
Right.
Quinten
Y'all talking about how I don't like how women make me feel in society about crying, how women make me, hold oh, hold on, hold.
Clarkson
Well, the question was about feelings.
Quinten
No, hold on.
Clarkson
It's about how men are affected, that's feelings.
So that's a conversation.
Quinten
Feminism itself is not about feeling, it's about like you said, outcome. It's about the wage gap. It's about having access.
CJ
Which doesn't exist by the way, right? But anyways--
Quinten
Hold on, hold on, hold on.
(murmurs)
No, hold on. No, you didn't let me talk though, hold on.
No, you didn't let me talk though, hold on.
CJ
It's about feelings, right?
You don't wanna talk about how men feel to talk about how women feel. Let's talk about feminists.
Quinten
Again, it's not about feelings, period.
That's my point.
CJ
How feminists have turned other women.
Quinten
Look, can we have the prompt again?
[Female] Yeah, let's get back to the prompt 'cause it didn't have feelings on.
Innocent men suffer because of feminism.
(murmurs)
Tucker
And so, can I pose this question?
Clarkson
But that is still about feminist, right?
Tucker
On a day-by-day basis, do you think you're negatively affected by feminist?
Clarkson
100% ~ 120%.
I really believe that.
Tucker
Can you explain to me how on a day by day basis
(murmurs)
Quinten
Because again, masculinity has this mythical eligibility of power.
When someone, feminist, what have you, challenges that, it feels like oppression to them.
It feels like something is (murmurs)
Clarkson
It's not challenging.
Quinten
That's my perception.
Feel free to disagree, but that's what it looks like to me.
CJ
And I'm not oppressed, so I challenge that perception. But also too, to go back to your point about feminism, that may have been true with first wave feminism, but with third wave feminism, that is no longer the case anymore.
Donovan
And I wouldn't even argue because first wave feminism
and third wave feminism--
[Female]
Let's bring it back to the prompt.
And then also just, I love ping-ponging, but just make sure we don't have five people talking on top of each other.
Kevin
There's another side to this too. It's the patriarchy.
And so that is what you are talking about. It is the pressure to be strong, the pressure to protect.
Clarkson
But in what ways is our society a patriarchy today?
I know you said value.
So I would wanna get clarification on what defines a patriarchy.
Kevin
So, we should define patriarchy as a group because I personally, am still having a hard time defining it today because it is so massive.
Clarkson
So, we're talking about something that we can't even define.
Tucker
So, I'll try and define. Do you want me to try and define?
On a broader spectrum, I'd say patriarchal is the societal structure that we have set up.
That's kind of, what's the word, sociological values of how we set up a hierarchy in our society.
And so it's not--
Clarkson
And patriarchy is defined by, YOU KNOW, where men are in charge and hold power.
Tucker
Yeah, but I'm not saying, it's a literal thing where there's some document that somebody wrote where it said,
"Men are in charge, women are second."
It is a set of sociological values that you see it changing the society.
Clarkson
So we're changing the definition of patriarchy, which is fine. I just wanna make sure we're on same page.
Tucker
No, I'm telling you that's what my definition is.
I didn't say there was a set (murmurs)
That's how I define it.
Quinten
So, are you saying we're not in a patriarchal society?
Clarkson
No, I don't believe we are today.
=========
Clarkson
So, the whole idea that our country is an oppressive patriarchy, it just really gets under my skin because nobody's able to actually tell me what that is. Well, by definition, the patriarchy would be a society where men have power over women and then women don't have a voice.
And in today's society, that's just not true.
Obviously, some people have power over others, but in our society, that has more to do with economic status than actual sex.
========
Josh
So going back to the prompt, right?
The prompt is, innocent men feel attacked.
(murmur)
Clarkson
Suffer (murmurs)
Josh
So, if you make a mistake, you should be held accountable to that mistake.
Tucker
Absolutely.
Josh
Now, with the forms of internet coming out and communication going everywhere, y'all are talking about feeling attacked for being able to say
certain things are not.
Clarkson
Not attacked.
I just think that psychologically that some innocent men do suffer from the narratives they push.
Donovan
But I would also push also suffer. If you're speaking about laws, I think feminism has changed a lot of laws--
Tucker
Like what?
Donovan
Now, all are women beneficiaries. So, if you look at divorce courts, if you look at family courts, if you look at abortion, if you look at a whole host of laws, all of them are women primary, men are heavily affected by those.
Cloverse
So I disagree actually on that. I don't actually agree on the whole loss stuff, but just going back to the prompt on the suffering thing, I do think that you have to be aware that a man can't just go and say whatever they want.
Tucker
Nobody can.
Cloverse
That is not true.
A female can say a lot more than a man can, especially, online, on social media, on the internet, there's been a rape threat made and a woman said no one will judge, an eye cancel culture doesn't come in.
But if a man said that same thing, they would get canceled immediately.
=====
Cloverse
I believe men today are really weak.
Mostly, they're lazy and I feel like there's no courage. I feel like men today are okay with being losers.
And I mean more men need to stand up for what they truly believe in, and I feel like there's not enough.
=========
CJ
Back to the prompt too.
Innocent men suffer from feminism.
I think look at what this entire Johnny Depp, Amber Heard situation that happened this past year, you have all these feminists rushing to the camp to defend Amber Heard.
And then all those things come out during that trial, and people are like, "Maybe Johnny Depp isn't the horrible guy that we thought he was, right?" So, that is an example of feminism radicalizing these people to just be like, "I'm gonna be anti-male and I'm gonna go root against this guy."
But to the point of the political--
Tucker
How is Johnny Depp? (murmurs)
[Female]
Wait, wait, guys, we have 30 seconds left on this prompt, so just finish your thought.
CJ
But yeah, but also to Brett Kavanaugh, big example there.
You have all these allegations that come up when he is going to be the Supreme Court justice that never came up before.
Cloverse
Right, exactly.
CJ
What did that do as far as enable people who have fake accusations to, I'm gonna ride the coattails of the Me Too movement and ruin an innocent man's life. That is wrong.
Tucker
Really quick though. Where's Brett Kavanaugh right now? He's on the Supreme Court?
CJ
He's on the Supreme Court. Thank God, because truth won the day.
Tucker
And then Johnny Depp, was he convicted on the crime?
CJ
Because truth won the day.
Tucker
But that's the point, so yeah--
CJ
He won in spite of feminism--
Tucker
There's a pendulum, and for a really long time, people weren't called out for things.
People weren't held accountable.
So now, yeah, the pendulum swinging.
Maybe there are gonna be some false accusations and stuff going too far.
I would rather have a million false accusations, like over a million people
that deserve to be in jail, not being in jail.
Do you see what I'm saying?
CJ
I don't.
Tucker
Like I'd rather, people go through false. You'd rather have a million people that are guilty on the streets than a million people that are not guilty have
to go through a trial.
I would rather have--
- [Female] All right, reset
========
=Women are fit to be president=
Clarkson
I mean, really this is a no brainer for me.
Tucker
Yeah.
I expected this to be unanimous, but I think this will probably, be the most biggest agreement amongst the group today.
I think that anyone who's born in America, above the age of 35, that's not a felon, you can be president.
Clarkson
Right. And I think a lot of times, in these conversations, we focus on the differences between men and women, but just based off of studies, men and women are very similar creatures.
I mean, we're the same species, we think the same on most levels.
And to say that a woman can't do the same job as a man, to me, is completely regressive.
Now, I consider myself an antifeminist today, but this is the type of question that I would be a feminist for 50 years ago.
To me, it should be a unanimous, YOU KNOW, thing stepping forward.
But I look forward to hearing what they have to say.
Donovan
I think eligibility and optimal option is the difference. I think a woman can be eligible to be a president.
I think, is it the optimal situation? No….
I would kind of disagree with you where you say men and women are generally the same.
I think we're completely different in the way that we process information, in the way that we make choices, the way that we build society.
Men are very hierarchical in nature, so it's very merit-oriented. I think women are a little bit more communitarianism or communism…?
Kevin
Communism?
Donovan
Communistic.
Clarkson
You mean community-based?
Donovan
Community-based, right.
Thank you, where everybody gets one.
So you get one, you get one.
It's not really based on output, on which I think is good in some cases, but I think in a general scheme of building a structure of government,
I would say having it more merit-based, very capitalistic, where you go out, you work for your living, you provide for your family.
I think that's the way that men typically build society.
Tucker
So even a woman whose worldview aligns with yours, you don't think that she would be fit to be president even if every single view she has.
Donovan
Right, like I said, she could be fit, but is it the optimal situation?
Tucker
So, is the only reason she's not optimal because she's woman?!
Donovan
I would say it's not optimal because God called men to be the leaders of society.
Josh
So again, you keep going back to God and we keep trying to center Christianity as like the know-all end-all.
What about all the religions that had female goddesses and matriarchal systems?
Quinten
We also don't have to sidestep Christianity as if there were not any female leaders in the Bible either.
[???]
Absolutely.
Cloverse
I'm gonna go to the, for my reason why, I think it was in London, and it's before their current prime minister, I'm forgetting her name, but she was their mayor for about two months, and she ran away.
She pretty much resigned… was done with it.
And I do personally think that women are more emotional beings.
We are not similar.
Clarkson
And that's actually not factually true. There are big differences between us, and those differences are very vast on the spectrum.
Cloverse
Yes, sort of.
Clarkson
But we are a lot more similar in the way we process information.
Cloverse
I was just trying to finish what I was saying.
I was pretty much trying to go to the point that feminism has created, especially, Western women to be more emotional, more erratic in their decision making and just more emotionally charged.
And that's where I brought up the London thing, where I feel like that's a good example of that happening where the pressure got to him, resigning is cowardly, to me, like being a coward.
Quintine
Has a male president ever resigned?
Cloverse
I'm not sure
Tucker
…but Richard Nixon.
So yeah, if I can interject--
Cloverse
But Richard Nixon was because he was getting put into crime.
Like that was a--
Tucker
Yeah, so it's double.
So if I can interject. So you're kind of using this one anecdotal evidence of like,
"Oh, this one woman got in office."
Are you aware of all of history because like literally, men led pretty much every nation, I'd say about 99% of nations forever.
So like yeah, all the good things that have happened from nations, sure, you can attribute that to the men.
Every bad thing is also attributed to men.
I'm not using this as an argument to say, men are bad and shouldn't be leaders.
What I'm saying is, you can point point to any person that did a bad job and then you can latch onto their gender and say that's a reason why that gender shouldn't do something--
Clarkson
That's the point.
Tucker
It's not a good example.
It doesn't make any sense.
Clarkson
But I do wanna go back to you saying a woman as a leader and how some of those things might not be fit to be president.
I think that when we talk about a lot of the problems men are facing, a woman being president could actually help some of those, especially, in facilitating a society, where talking about your feelings is more accepted.
I do believe in a 100% merit-based society, which is why I believe that anybody, man or woman, gay or straight, black or white, can be president if they have the merit to be so.
But I think that to say that just because a woman makes some decisions differently, would somehow have a negative impact on society, is all just based off of assumption, when it could actually have a very positive one.
=======
=The gender pay gap is real=
Clarkson
I agree that the pay gap is real, but I don't agree with this studies that a lot of people use to say that it's solely based because of being a woman, rather than taking into account career preference, time taken off, the actual
way you do your job.
There's a lot of other variables that go into these studies and a lot of times I see the feminist movement say,
"Oh, if you're a woman, you're gonna make less than a man."
And it's just a lot more complex than that.
Tucker
So, I agree that it's a nuanced conversation.
So, there's like two things that I wanna put on.
My dad, right, do you think my dad raised my brother and I and my sister the same?
Clarkson
Obviously, not. No, I would hope not.
You're a male and your sister is a woman.
Tucker
Well yeah, but like in the sense that my dad pushed me into different things than he pushed my sister towards.
I think women are raised in a way where they're not encouraged to pursue their interests, and now we're starting to get to a generation where I think that might happen… but it's gonna take some time.
But then, the second one is gonna be that you get what you negotiate.
And this is, I can only give personal experience again, my dad has worked in HR of a company.
They offer men more at the start than they do women, because men are more likely to negotiate anyways.
Women are more likely to take the first thing that is offered.
Clarkson
Oh, that's the truth, yeah.
Tucker
So, and that is the thing where they take advantage of the fact that they know women feel uncomfortable in a male-dominated space.
So you are going to get a job interview, you're getting interviewed by a man. Everyone you saw when you walked in for the most part was a man. And then they offer you a salary, you're gonna be a little bit less likely to push back, and that's my personal experience.
CJ
But that's not on the company in that example, that's on the women unfortunately, right?
They have to be their own best advocate.
They have to stand up for themselves, they have to negotiate better.
You look at this issue--
Quintine
Or you can pay them more..
Clarkson
Based on what though?
CJ
But when you look at this issue of the gender wage gap also too, the narrative that surrounds it is absolutely factually untrue.
You're looking at the average income or salaries of men and the average incomes of women.. and obviously, there's gonna be a difference.
Men and women choose to do different things.
Like you said, men tend to dominate higher paying industries, higher paying careers.
Women tend to go do other things.
Quintine
I also think that we also, like there is a level of preservation that is omitted in these types of conversations.
You guys say it's nature, right?
I have two daughters.
If I push my daughters into a male-dominated space, brick laying or something like that, who are my kids gonna have to work around?
Are they gonna have to endure a locker room talk?
Those are things that are real things that I'm gonna have to entertain and my thought process will not decide where I'm gonna push my child.
So, that's why I'm saying, it's not just nature.
There are societal--
Clarkson
No, it's not, I agree.
Quintine
There are societal things in place that put women at a deficit when it comes to making money.
Cloverse
If a woman feels intimidated, that's on her. Like that is on her.
Quinten
Exactly.
Cloverse
She needs to fight it.
And I don't believe the wage gap exists because you're given the same opportunity to earn the money. The fact that you don't fight for your salary or don't fight for the wage because you feel uncomfortable, it's on you.
At the end of the day, it's on you.
If you go in and you're applying for a job and you feel intimidated and then they say,
"Oh, we're gonna pay you minimum wage," and you agree to it, when YOU KNOW you should be earning like $20 or $30 or whatever, it's on you.
You can't cry about it and say,
"Oh this is because men dominate."
Tucker
Well, so--
Quintine
Wait. Sorry, can I interject?
Tucker
Yeah, yeah, go ahead.
Quintine
Okay, so it's on the woman that she feels intimidated, right?
That's kind of the paramount.
Cloverse
Yes
Quintine
So then, is that the same when it comes to like, once you're actually hired
and once you are the energy or the environment that you work in as well?
Cloverse
Yeah, 100%.
Quintinie
So, the company has no responsibility to make a safe work environment
or anything like that?
Cloverse
I never said that.
Quintine
I'm asking you a question.
Cloverse
I said, feeling intimidated is not the same as being intimidated or being constantly pushed to be intimidated, YOU KNOW what I mean?
Like, if I were to you and go, "Yo, I'm gonna hit you," or yo--
Quintine
No, no, no, I wouldn't say that.
=====
Quintine
The idea that women are tasked with their own social context and creating the environments for themselves that they want to operate within, even though they're continually stripped of power, is infuriating and is disrespectful.
It echoed the sentiment of black people keeping themselves down because of the acknowledgement of racism.
=====
Tucker
I think we'd all agree teachers, nurses, medical professionals, objectively important jobs for the fabric of society.
Cloverse
In the United States.
Tucker
And we clearly undervalue these industries that are women-dominant.
Do you think that that's just a coincidence?
Donovan
No, where I would agree with you is, I do think that teachers and
nurses should make more money, but that doesn't factor to the point that there is a pay gap.
Because if man goes to be a teacher, he's still gonna get paid
the same amount as a woman.
(murmurs)
Josh
All right, let's take a job where men and women both participate, like world cups going on right now. Look at the US American men's team--
And the women's team.
Clarkson
Oh my gosh.
The men's team is also significantly more skilled than the women's team and brings in a better audience.
CJ
And more people watch it.
Josh
Skilled, how?
CJ
More people watch it.
Do you think people that play in the WNBA should be making the same thing as NBA players?
Josh
I don't think NBA or WNBA players should be making more than teachers. (murmurs)
CJ
Answer my question. Answer my question.
======
CJ
In 2022, women are not victims, but yet we live in a society that glorifies being a victim, glorifies being oppressed, glorifies people feeling bad for you, when honestly, all it does is again, it provides another disservice to the people that are these so-called victims.
======
=I haven't always understood consent in intimate relationships=
Donovan
One of the problems is, consent is not always clearly communicated.
And I think that's one of the things that, and has kind of been weaponized against men.
Whether the woman wasn't excited about it or she didn't like the guy or she was drunk or all these things that they can use to remove their consent
and their responsibility in that they would ruin the romantic image of that guy if he asked to kiss you or if he asked to have sex with you at every single point.
Quinten
My experience with it has been a little bit different.
As a black kid, I was taught that if you engage in a romance with a white woman, it's a possibility that she might falsely accuse you of something.
So I've always been, I guess, you can say hyper consensual.
What that has done for me is, it has revealed the bullshittery that is all these backdoor cuts that men act like women take to accuse them of things.
It's super possible to never engage romantically with a woman in a way that she doesn't want. It's not even hard.
Cloverse
Right.
Tucker
There's enthusiastic consent.
You shouldn't wanna feel like you're talking somebody into something or like, they are "Okay" with it.
You have sexual encounters with people that want to have sexual encounters, that are excited about it.
And like that's something that I do think gets lost.
Donovan
But to you--
Tucker
Oh, one more thing, one more thing, really quick.
I know young men that definitely didn't wanna have sex as much as they were, and they were men, but they feel like they had to, they don't.
And it's like these things, like it's informing young people, like even though you don't want them to have sex at a young age, you have to inform them of it 'cause they'll do it wrong if you don't.
Kevin
It's baked into our culture from the music that we listen to. It's in porn, it's a dominating culture.
When you go into a relationship, these are the things that you see, so you try to enact on that.
Consent doesn't make you any less of a man, consent is really creating the
safety for the other person to mutually just be down for it.
======
Clarkson
Honestly, I didn't really hear anything that I disagreed with over here.
It's just the only thing in this conversation that I worry about is lack of accountability.
'Cause a lot of times, YOU KNOW, women or men, it doesn't matter what your sex is, if you're engaging in sexual activity, you can pretty much signal
that it's consensual, and it can get confusing.
But then if a woman or if a man doesn't verbalize it, and then they go back, they confuse consent with regret.
And I've seen that a lot in court cases or just throughout our culture.
- But that's where the cores thing come, right?
And like the context running, like:
If they were to say no, would they have been safe?
Would there have been repercussions?
Are you putting them in a position where there--
Clarkson
But is that on the man or is on the woman because if they agree to do it--
Tucker
It depends on the situation.
Clarkson
I'm not sure you're raped.
Tucker
So, like the Harvey Weinstein thing, like if any of those women say no, their careers are ruined.
They're in danger, 'cause they're status
So, it's the context.
I don't think that false accusations, especially, for sexual assault are anywhere near as common as people wanna make them out to be.
And I think the much bigger problem in day-to-day life is the consent issues, not the false accusations.
Cloverse
That's undermining it though.
Josh
Undermining what? Undermining what?
Cloverse
Because you guys haven't gone through it. Saying that that is okay is not.
Tucker
I'm not saying it's okay. I'm saying in terms of what's a bigger issue that we need to worry about.
Quintine
Yeah, I think there are some nuanced issues that we have to pick aside, and I'm picking women not getting raped over men, not getting falsely accused.
CJ
Those aren't mutually exclusive, and it's a shame that we live in a world that's so black and white that you can't balance the interest of those who are true victims and also those who are falsely accused.
One false allegation of rape, sexual assault, discredits a lot of other real ones in people's eyes.
It ruins the lives of people who are true victims of getting their cases heard
in a fair and positive light.
Josh
I think what we're all circling around is that what we need in our society is
comprehensive sexual education.
And I think the topic of consent needs to be just as important as the topic of protection.
Quintine
You probably would if men got raped more.